dimanche 9 janvier 2005

Espace détente 9

70 commentaires:

Anonyme a dit…

"More I cannot say, what more can I say?"

http://tinyurl.com/8ntpsqa

-Jan
CDN

Flocon a dit…

Thanks for this song Jan, a song that I discovered back in 1978 and that I used to listen to every month of May of each new year for it represented some kind of "renaissance" to me, go figure why.

I didn't know the lyrics until I've made the research 10 minutes ago after I've opened the link...

""More I cannot say, what more can I say?""

Indeed, this line may well sum it all as far as this blog is concerned...

Flocon a dit…

Ooops... It is that one that I used to listen to.

Never mind, the #9 dream is another great one anyway.

Anonyme a dit…

>>may well sum it all as far as this blog is concerned...

"You don't know what you got, until you lose it":
http://tinyurl.com/9lxuecv

-Jan
CDN

Anijo a dit…

Alas, this is the end, the end, my beautiful friend, the end.

Flocon a dit…

Hej Anijo,

One year to this day I wrote a post which was an announcement that I was slowing down the rythm of the blog for reasons that were explained then. And indeed I have published thrice as less posts than I used to.

Shall we talk? has entered its 6th year and it may well have over lived its life-expectancy by now.

In the 70s, when journalists were keeping asking McCartney "when will the Beatle reunite?" he once replied that when one has left school it is forever, one doesn't return into the past.

You know I believe in signs and here is one: Since I've stepped up the gas a couple of weeks ago (that isn't that long after all) the blog is being absolutely inundated with a deluge of spams like never before.

Every day and I mean e-ve-ry-day, I have to delete something like 40 spams out of my mailbox whereas it previously used to be a dozen per week. And it is now in the range of 300 per week. Les ronces envahissent les terres abandonnées...

The blog was semi comatose for something like 6 months three and a half year ago and it eventually was relived but now all things come to an end doesn't it?

I don't shut down the desk and I may write again someday but for the time being -and also it may be definitive - I have lost most of my motivation...

Anijo a dit…

Flocon,
It's understandable your fatigue. I do hope you post a little something here and there as I would surely miss you.

Flocon a dit…

J'ai fait une dizaine de fautes impardonnables dans le commentaire en anglais. Another sign...

"step up the gas" should have been "step on the gas" which actually means the opposite of what I wanted to say. Signs pile up...

The blog was revived et pas relived... What a drag it is.

Anijo a dit…

Well, it's a drag getting older, but it's also a turn-on getting older.

If you, Flocon, are this upset for a few mistakes in English, I should be burying my head in the sand for all the mistakes I make in French.

Perhaps you are too much of a perfectionist?

Anonyme a dit…

I wanted to add to my comments on our discussion of the nature of reality, but I always had something more urgent to do at the time.

My motivation is not diminished. The time available seems to be so. Perhaps I grow less efficient with age.

I attended an excellent conference on politico-military issues at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill two weeks ago. There were some things worth saying about it. I recall that I went to the same conference two years ago. At that time, I reported on Superfrenchie some comments by the panel members about the European defense effort. This prompted an acrimonious exchange with FX, who was angry because I was unwilling to accept his link to a blogger's report about the conference proceedings as more persuasive than my own personal observations. He delivered a Parthian shot of insults and departed the blog, never to appear again as I recall.

Perhaps I will report on some of the papers read at the conference.

In any case, all the evidence supports the conclusion that the muse comes and goes. I suspect Flocon will soon be subject to another attack of creativity.

SemperFidelis

Anijo a dit…

Ah, the elusive muse...

O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend
The brightest heaven of invention,
A kingdom for a stage, princes to act
And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!


Speaking of the Spacetime Continuum and to add a little humor, here is an excerpt from Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

"I have detected," he said, "disturbances in the wash." …
"The wash?" said Arthur.
"The space-time wash," said Ford. …
Arthur nodded, and then cleared his throat. "Are we talking about," he asked cautiously, "some sort of Vogon laundromat, or what are we talking about?"
"Eddies," said Ford, "in the space-time continuum."
"Ah," nodded Arthur, "is he? Is he?" He pushed his hands into the pocket of his dressing gown and looked knowledgeably into the distance.
"What?" said Ford.
"Er, who," said Arthur, "is Eddy, then, exactly, then?"
"There!" said Ford, shooting out his arm. "There, behind that sofa!"
Arthur looked. Much to his surprise, there was a velvet paisley-covered Chesterfield sofa in the field in front of them. He boggled intelligently at it. Shrewd questions sprang into his mind.
"Why," he said, "is there a sofa in that field?"
"I told you!" shouted Ford, leaping to his feet. "Eddies in the space-time continuum!"
"And this is his sofa, is it?" asked Arthur, struggling to his feet and, he hoped, though not very optimistically, to his senses.

Anijo a dit…

Well, SemperFi and Flocon, this really is the end of our discussions. It was ever so nice having my ideas changed by your ideas. Goodbye and the best of wishes to the both of you, as well as to Ned, ZapPow and Jan.

Flocon a dit…

Jan,

Since you've given the link to the #9 dream song I have this tune incessantly reverberating in my brain but since I like the song and the harmonies it is okay ;-)

Flocon a dit…

Hu ho, I see there are some comments that were left unanswered on this thread...

I don't remember the episode you mention regarding the exchange on SuperFrenchie's and I don't even remember if I ever interacted with this FX???

"Perhaps I will report on some of the papers read at the conference"

Here is my sugggestion as well as Anijo's I guess

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy seems to be a valuable read to enjoy but it is a program that I cartainly am not familiar with.

But now I remember someone reffered to it some years ago because the 42 number now rings a bell with me. Maybe was it you already?

"The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be."

That one is absolutely great and also is a good illustration of why the questioning about the nature of reality is worth asking.

Are the ideas exposed on the Time out post so difficult to grasp when we consider "normal" the situation Adams expose after all?

Anijo a dit…

But now I remember someone reffered to it some years ago because the 42 number now rings a bell with me. Maybe was it you already?

It could have been me, or perhaps Ned.

Are the ideas exposed on the Time out post so difficult to grasp when we consider "normal" the situation Adams expose after all?

Bingo. Douglas Adams understands the notion. He is both an artist (in a sense as he's a writer) and someone who is quite familiar with quantum mechanics.

Anijo a dit…

I don't even remember if I ever interacted with this FX???

I don't think you did. He was more active on the forum in later years than on the blog from the earlier years. He's a rather conservative Frenchman.

Anijo a dit…

http://youtu.be/qMIdNmxISms

Anijo a dit…

Douglas MacArthur
It is part of the general pattern of misguided policy that our country is now geared to an arms economy which was bred in an artificially induced psychosis of war hysteria and nurtured upon an incessant propaganda of fear.

Interesting... and Richard Nixon: The last liberal president?

Anijo a dit…

P.S. I sent you some links to songs from Jan. Did you receive them?

Anijo a dit…

The World as Will and Idea / Representation

Flocon a dit…

I have Anijo and the reason why it took some days is in your mailbox.

I notice there's a quote by Plato on the front page of your link to Rock the Capital...

I have to read the piece now.
----

Hello Jan and thanks for the songs, I'm not used to this kind of musical ambiance.



Anijo a dit…

I want to share a music video from a good friend of mine.

Anijo a dit…

Zakaria takes viewers on a virtual tour of Germany, France, Denmark for potential solutions for America’s energy challenges and then brings viewers back to America – to Houston, TX, and Aspen, CO – to show what’s already being done here in America.

Flocon a dit…

Oh s...t!

Once again there's been another problem and my answers to your comments have vanished in the ether.

Je n'ai pas le courage de recommencer ce soir :-(

Anijo a dit…

Dommage. Mais merci pour avoir fait un effort.

Anonyme a dit…

>>thanks for the songs
>>not used to this kind of musical ambiance

...

-Jan
CDN

Flocon a dit…

Re McArthur,

His quote reminds of Eisenhower's farewell address of course but for what I know, McArthur also wanted to drop some A bombs upon the UssR in order to get rid of the perceived commie threat and that is the reason why Trumann dismissed him afaik, so I'm not sure McArthur was a real peacenik in the end.

I haven't done any research though..

---------

I haven't found any trace of Zakaria in the link you gave Anijo???

Anonyme a dit…

Flccon/Anijo: The current open threads are all interesting, but I have no time to say anything useful.

Re Douglas McArthur, he is a complex, brilliant and flawed character.
Any quotation must be carefully considered in context.

Truman claimed that McArthur had advocated using the bomb during the crisis following Chinese intervention in the Korean War. But when challenged by McArthur, he retracted the claim.

Truman relieved McArthur for violating a Presidential Directive prohibiting public statements about war policy. McArthur pubicly disagreed with Truman's policy of limited war in Korea.

"...we must win. There is no substitute for victory."

But the Joint Chiefs agreed that McArthur had never violated any military order on the conduct of the war.

Truman's act brought on a constitutional crisis, because McArthur had not actually disobeyed a military order. In the end, although Truman's popularity fell to the lowest level ever recorded for a sitting president, the Congress did not press the issue and it is now settled that military officers serve "at the pleasure of the President" literally and can be lawfully relieved for any reason or no reason by the President. Although this may seem obvious now, it was not so clear at the time. Remember that, at the going in point, all officer's appointments must be confirmed by the Senate. It was not so clear that the Congress had no say in the going out process.

SemperFidelis

Anijo a dit…

Flocon,
When I click on the link, it leads me to the artice re Zakaria. hmmm.. the mysteries of the internet.

SemperFi,
You're right that a quote must be considered in context. The quote from MacArthur was made in a speech at Lansing, Michigan in May 1952. I could not find the full speech, but did find this interesting newspaper archive re the speech.

Anijo a dit…

Oh and when MacArthur was a young lad, he lived at Fort Selden because his father was the commander at that time. Fort Selden is just north of where I live. I always take out-of-town guests to visit this interesting place.

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,

I realised this afternoon that the announcement re Zakaria was at the bottom of the page, down the pictures and the video.

So I watched the video and I couldn't understand the reason why you linked to it.

I didn't scroll down the page... my bad but at the end of the day isn't it an announcement for a radio program ?

But I scrolled down the pages in the link you gave to McArthur's speech in Lansing Michigan and it's kind of fascinating to watch these 60 year old ads.

Also there's an Italian Jesuit going communist and a woman who smokes Old Gold for a treat instead of a treatment...

Who would have found this link but you Anijo? ;-)

Flocon a dit…

Thanks for the details SemperFidelis, a (near) first hand testimony is always more informative than earsays and remembrances of things past.

Douglas McArthur, he is a complex, brilliant and flawed character.

Another American general I heard of and about whom the same could have (and possibly have) been said is Patton for what I know. And from what I know (that is not much) Patton's personality didn't rally all military personal behind him.

Interesting to consider all these American generals of WWII made their combat debut in France in 1917/1918.

Eventually, I may consider opening a Parisian franchise of the Marine corps gazette, be it only because the name is made of French words...

Anijo a dit…

Who would have found this link but you Anijo? ;-)

Flocon, I was thinking you'd appreciate it. ☺

Anijo a dit…

SemperFi,

In a moment of serendipity, this morning Terry Gross was discussing this very topic. I noted that she and her guest were wrong in talking about MacArthur's opinion re China and the bomb.

Thank you for this information. Per Wiki:

MacArthur did not advocate the use of nuclear weapons to recover the situation. In his testimony before the Senate Inquiry, he said that he had never recommended their use. In 1960, MacArthur challenged a statement by Truman that he had wanted to use nuclear weapons, and Truman issued a retraction, stating that he had no documentary evidence of this claim; it was merely his personal opinion. According to Major General Courtney Whitney, MacArthur did at one point consider a plan to use radioactive wastes to seal off North Korea, based upon a 1950 proposal by Louis Johnson, but never submitted this to the Joint Chiefs.[79] In 1985 Richard Nixon recalled discussing the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with MacArthur:

Anijo a dit…

So I watched the video and I couldn't understand the reason why you linked to it.

I linked to to it only because I wanted you to note that Americans are interested in learning about energy solutions from the Germans and the French.

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,

re the music video from a good friend of yours

So Barbara Ireland is a good friend of yours eh?

Do you think she would mind a shy Parisian cutie explaining her the Kantian antinomies of pure reason?

Flocon a dit…

re McArthur, so he held this speech warning against electing a military man to public office the year Eisenhower was a candidate in the November 1952 presidential election.

Was there no love lost between these two men?

Other than that, can someone gather what the link is between this song by the Beatles and McArthur?

Ned Ludd a dit…

Do you search redemption for your sins, if any?

Redemption, n. Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sin through their murder of the deity against whom they sinned. The doctrine of Redemption is the fundamental mystery of our holy religions, and whoso believeth in it shall not perish, but have everlasting life in which to try to understand it.

--Ambrose Bierce

By taking a pause, you can get a head start in trying to understand it.

Anijo a dit…

re McArthur, so he held this speech warning against electing a military man to public office the year Eisenhower was a candidate in the November 1952 presidential election.

Was there no love lost between these two men?


Bingo. This explains why MacArthur came across as a peacenik re that quote.

And here is a complex explanation of why there was not much love lost between these two men.

Anijo a dit…

Do you think she would mind a shy Parisian cutie explaining her the Kantian antinomies of pure reason?

Oh my... lol... i don't think she would have a clue what Kantian antimonies of pure reason even refers to .. ☺

Flocon a dit…

Thanks for the link to McArthur and Eisenhower.

I just asked the question because I found it bizarre that McArthur held that speech in 1952.

Fact is I didn't know where the quote was from and your link to Life magazine provided the answer.

I hadn't the slightest idea there was any enmity between these two men.

-------

As pertains the song by the Beatles, when he left the Philippines mcArthur also said "I'll be back" (or "I'll come back").

Ned Ludd a dit…

Another quote by Kurt Vonnegut I like comes from a commencement speech he was invited to give at a graduation ceremony. Those who invited him probably regretted it. He said, "Things are getting worse, and they are never ever going to get better."

Quite a message for those who are just starting out in life.

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,


There soon will be another store waiting for you in Paris...

Flocon a dit…

Ned,

the quote by Vonnegut that you give is a classic religious idea reminiscent of the Fall of man:

There once was a paradise and ever since Adam and Eve had been expelled from it things have been getting worse by the day and will continue to aggravate until the final redemption which is the main theme of eschatology (if you remember the word).

Of course a true Marxist cannot share this view but I do, which shows I'm not a true Marxist.

But I'm not a religious mind either and I believe in the permanent and universal worsening of things be it only because the demogaphic increase is an absolute mechanical and mathematical garantee that humanity is bound to its destrujction and of course I don't believe in any luminous future or after life..

Anijo a dit…

Oh my Flocon, Tiffany's is too expensive for my pocketbook these days. Although I do own a few pieces of Tiffany jewelry that I acquired many many moons ago. Why did you think of me re Tiffanys?

Anijo a dit…

Your comment re eschatology was meant for Ned, but, hell, I didn't even know how to pronounce this word. Shall we Talk, for me, is similar to attending classes in political science, science, and philosophy. Merci Flocon. I love your blog and exchanging ideas here. I learn so much from all of you.

Flocon a dit…

"Why did you think of me re Tiffanys?"

Parce que tu le vaux bien Anijo ;-)

But I don't know if the slogan (which now is a catchphrase in France) is well known down in N.M...

See here.

I haven't been able to spot Ned though. And yet she's worth it too...

------
"hell, I didn't even know how to pronounce this word."
(eschatology)

Hell, it's the same pronunciation both in French and English: Ees-ska-to-logy ;-)

Flocon a dit…

Anijo,

You don't seriously attend your classes I can tell!

The pronunciation of the word eschatology is given on the Wiki page with an audio file as exemple...

The day you present the exam you may regret not to have been attentive enough... ;-)

Anijo a dit…

Parce que tu le vaux bien Anijo ;-) Because you think I'm worth it? Ah, that's so sweet Flocon. Thank you so much. It's interesting that Jane Fonda was married to Ted Turner for some years.

Anijo a dit…

The pronunciation of the word eschatology is given on the Wiki page with an audio file as exemple...

Yes, I know. I heard that example, and that is why I now know how to pronounce said word.

Anonyme a dit…

Well, here is a quiz for you:

Who said "Don't let them immanentize the Eschaton"?

And: What does it mean?

SemperFidelis

Flocon a dit…

Ooops, sorry Anijo, you indeed wrote that you didn't know how to pronounce the word which means that by the time you posted your comment you did know how to pronounce it because by then you had heard the audio file.

Why is it that I can't keep my big mouth closed???

And now I must answer a quiz...

Flocon a dit…

SemperFi,

"Don't let them immanentize the Eschaton"

Since I haven't done any research on the web I don't know who said the quote you provide and if it's yours, the web probably wouldn't have helped...

I guess the verb "to immanentize" is constructed from "immanent" which is the opposite of "transcendent" and refers to the sub-lunar world, the one where we live and the one that we can experience as opposed to the one which is beyond human experience (the transcendental one).

The "eschaton" can be interpreted as the object of eschatology.

Therefore "Don't let them immanentize the Eschaton" means that what belongs to the inaccessible realm of God should not be brought down to earth and should be kept out of reach of any critical human questioning.

This is a theological recommendation that may originate from any religion corpus of dogma, Jewish, Muslim of Christian.

It refers to these religious "mysteries" that must not be cleared and explained fear the masses would have no consolation left.

The "them" I suppose refers to political opponents.

Anijo a dit…

Well done Flocon!

Per Wiki:

From this comes the catchphrase: "Don't immanentize the eschaton!" which simply means: "Do not try to make that which belongs to the afterlife happen here and now." or "Don't try to create heaven on earth."
When Voegelin uses the term gnosis negatively, it is to reflect the word as found in the Manichaeism and Valentinianism of antiquity. As it is later then immanentized (or manifest) in modernity in the wake of Joachim of Fiore and in the various ideological movements outlined in his works.[8] Voegelin also builds on the term gnosticism as it is defined by Hans Jonas in his The Gnostic Religion in reference to Heidegger's gnosticism. Which is to have an understanding and control over reality that makes Mankind as powerful as the role of God in reality.

Flocon a dit…

Re Voegelin,

The French Wiki says:

"Assez peu connu en France en dehors de quelques universitaires spécialisés..."

Effectivement je ne connaissais pas ce nom. Par ailleurs il s'agit de philosophie politique qui est un domaine de la pensée qui m'intéresse moins que la pensée orientée vers l'individu.

He also had a religious up bringing therefore his use of a religious concept with this phrase.

As to being a catchphrase, it may be so in the US where he taught but I've never heard that sentence prior to SemperFi's quotation.

"La thèse principale de Voegelin est que la modernité s'enracine dans la tentative politique violente de faire descendre le paradis sur terre et de faire de l'accès aux moyens du bonheur ici-bas la fin ultime de toute politique. Cette immanentisation du réel et de la vie spirituelle..."

C'est donc une pensée anti marxiste et donc éminemment conservatrice. He also was a friend of Leo Strauss, a Jewish thinker who was an inspiration for the American conservative political circles.

Non je ne connaissais pas l'auteur de la citation mais il suffisait de comprendre les mots "immanent" et "Eschaton" qui sont en quelque sorte antonymes pour en comprendre le sens.

Quoi qu'il en soit, c'est une bonne occasion pour m'informer davantage de ces courants de pensée contemporains.

Anijo a dit…

As to being a catchphrase, it may be so in the US where he taught but I've never heard that sentence prior to SemperFi's quotation.

C'est la première fois que je l'ai entendu moi-même aussi.

Flocon a dit…

But here I must thank SemperFidelis for his quotation from Voegelin. Had I come by myself with the very same quote, the girls who have greeted me with the usual scorn and haughtiness they're used to and the more I would have protested it was a real quote, the more I would have been ridiculed.

Now what difference a uniform makes...

Anijo a dit…

The girls have been haughty, eh? Now, Flocon, that is no way to win the hearts of women. Of course, you know this... yes, indeed you do you naughty boy... ;)

Anijo a dit…

Furthermore, Flocon, you're as curious as I am as concerns SemperFi's opinions on these various topics.

Ned Ludd a dit…

Stephen Colbert reports on exotic dancing being art. The owner of such a venue is taking his case to court. His name is Stephen Dick(no kidding).

Anijo a dit…

J'espère que tout va bien avec toi Flocon. Sending you some New Mexico sunshine. ☼ ☼ ☼

Anijo a dit…

Okay, so how about some moon shine and a little bit of love... ♥

Anijo a dit…

Or perhaps some Schopenhauer? ;)

Flocon a dit…

Bonjour Anijo,

We indeed need some warmth from sunny New Mexico here in Paris and precisely your message has arrived and the evidence is that the sky's all blue this morning and I can see the trails of the planes from CdG airport, possibly heading to California or N.M, though I doubt there exist direct flights between Bee’eldííldahsinil and Europe.

I guess you know of this European greetings of the sun and of the one who sings it [never heard of before for my part :-( ]

Anijo a dit…

Ya'at eeh Flocon! I see you've been studying up a bit on Diné Bizaad.
The chidí naatʼaʼí flies direct to Dallas. I have to fly El Paso-Dallas-Paris when I go to France.

A chidí naatʼaʼí is a flying car. ;)

Anijo a dit…

Ah, the cute little fishies are back. ☺

Anijo a dit…

Et Zap Pow? Ca fait longtemps q'on lui avait 'vu'...

Flocon a dit…

Et Zap Pow? Ca fait longtemps q'on lui avait 'vu'...

...qu'on ne l'a pas 'vu'...

Yes, the last time was on the two slits on my head post, Anfang September, that is three months ago...

Well, I don't know

Anijo a dit…

qu'on ne l'a pas 'vu'...

Merci Flocon. Il me faut etre plus 'on the ball'... as concerns my french grammar...